My goal is to make SEO easier, fun, and profitable for small businesses.
— Joe Williams

Episode Summary

I’m joined today by Joe Williams, SEO expert, founder of Tribe SEO, and creator of Learn SEO Fast. He’s here to share his course and how it demystifies SEO to help small businesses make huge impacts online.

Joe got into the world of SEO in 2004. After seeing business owners struggle to make sense of the hype surrounding optimization, and seeing that most agencies weren’t doing anything about it, he launched Tribe SEO. What started as an in-person training in and around London is now an online community with global reach. Joe’s online course, Learn SEO Fast, takes a common sense approach to ranking so that anyone can learn how to do it -- quickly!  

Tune in to hear Joe’s straight forward perspective on SEO, why it’s important for every business, and how you can use it to make your business more profitable. Enjoy!

+ Episode Transcript

Joe Williams: You know, I would sort of maybe challenge you to teach it in person even if it's just one or two times or even fairly, you know, frequently or infrequently because there's one thing, seeing someone in front of you, learning what you're teaching. You can see what bits they enjoy, what bits they do enjoy, what bits they're struggling with.

Janelle Allen: Welcome to Level Up Your Course, where we pull back the curtain on what it takes to create learning that transforms lives. You will hear stories from business owners like you who share their success and their struggles. This is not where you come to hear passive income myths, friend. This is where you learn the truth about building a profitable learning platform. I am your host Jenelle Allen, and this is today's episode.

JA: What's up, everyone? Today I am speaking with Joe Williams, who is all the way in the UK. Joe is an SEO expert, founder of and the creator of Learn SEO Fast. Joe, welcome to the show.

JW: Thank you very much. Janelle. Yeah, really pleased to be on the show and hope things are good with you today.

JA: Things are great because of the time difference. We were just chatting before. So it's morning for me, and it's late afternoon for you. So my voice might be a little, little crackly.

JW: Mine might be just kind of the end of the day kind of syndrome. But um, no, all is good here.

JA: Good, good, good. Okay, so we have a tradition on the show. Before we get into the main questions, we do what we call the rapid five, five quick questions to help listeners get to know you. Are you ready?

JW: Sure. Go for it.

JA: Number one, what did you have for breakfast today?

JW: I had a little bit, I guess childish if you like, but I had egg and soldiers, so dippy eggs.

JA: I have no idea what that is, Joe.

JW: Maybe it's a UK thing, but it is basically boiled eggs that are runny. You cracked the top of the egg; you cut your toast into little slices, and you dip your toast into the egg. It's kind of what you would give your children if you had any children. But um, it's something I still like to do. So that's what I had.

JA: What's the other one? Eggy in a basket or I know from that film V for vendetta and he, he made it like the egg and the toast.

JW: I heard of egg in basket, but I'm not sure actually. It sounds nice. I'd probably like it.

JA: You just ruined like I had this vision that every British person who is eating that and now that is ruined for me. Thank you so much.

JW: Well, I'm from Wales, so maybe it's more of a, we'll save that for the English.

JA: Gotcha. All right. Okay. Question two. What song or album you have on rotation right now?

JW: I've been listening a lot to Dashboard Confessional at the moment, so they are, I would probably say they kind of like an indie stroke, emo, acoustic rock, pop band. I think they're American, but um, just seem to be playing a lot of that at the minute.

JA: Okay, cool. Alright. Number three is a serious question, and this is the first time I've asked this question of someone in the UK. So I'm interested to hear your answer. This is a very serious question. In our scenario right now, the zombie apocalypse has hit. It's happening, and you have six minutes to grab three essential items, not [inaudible] well, all of your loved ones are okay. Three items to get you through. What are, what do you pay?

JW: Oh, okay. I was initially thinking a Kindle, but the battery might run out on that one. But I'm gonna stick with the Kindle. I think Ineed something to, to defend myself. I don't know, maybe like a spear or a spade. And the last one, maybe some kind of music.

JA: Okay. Music, something to read and something to protect yourself. Okay. Pretty straight forward thing. That's maybe the British way. No judgment. Those are your three. For me, I like to know because I want to know if I ever need a crew who's going to be prepared. So that's my selfish reason for asking. But you're all the way in the UK, so you know it's, that's never going to happen in this. I'm there when the zombie apocalypse breaks up. But anyway.

JW: Okay, then that sounds good. Cool.

JA: All right. Number four, if you were not doing the work that you're doing now, what would you be doing?

JW: As a child? I was wanting to be a football player or you know, as you guys call it, soccer players. So um, I'd definitely be happy if I, you know, I'm 38 now, so I'm probably a little bit old to be playing professional football, maybe involved in sports or coaching, that type of thing I reckon.

JA: Yeah. Okay. All right. Number five, what is the hardest lesson you have learned so far as an entrepreneur?

JW: I think the hardest lesson for me is, and this is going to sound really strange actually, and it was another podcast I was listening to recently, and I would say one of my highest values is integrity. So that's integrity of with how you deal with people. But what got me thinking in this podcast was its kind of like self-integrity, and I don't always believe that I will finish what I say I will do in the time that I allow myself to or the target that I set myself. So I think the biggest lesson for me really as high as the value of integrity is and how I deal with other people, I need to focus more on my own self-integrity and basically being more committed to timeframes and sort of staying in those gaps.

JA: Yeah, I definitely relate to that. I think as business owners, especially, you know, small business owners, we're just prone to take things on and then it's this moment where we think, h maybe I over-committed myself. Maybe there's a finite amount of time and can I get everything done?

JW: Exactly. And I think people who teach courses, they like to help people and people that like to help people like to take things on. And that's just the nature of it. But it doesn't mean that you can't change how you approach things and you know, be a bit more decisive in what you take on and what you don't.

JA: Yeah, that's so true. So much of burnout is simply from over-committing and not knowing your bandwidth or capacity. And I think that that's only something you learn as you go on, right. You start to realize this is what I can handle in a given week, month, whatever the case may be. But sticking to that is the hardest part.

JW: Yeah. Sticking to it. And so a lot of people that do online courses, they want to do it because they're an entrepreneur and they want to do it so they can be their own boss. But the danger of being your own boss is you're not really accountable to anyone. And that's probably like one of the things that I really enjoy, not being accountable to anyone, but at the same time it does come with discipline. And that's something which I think maybe it's one of my kind of areas for 2019 you know, to keep working on.

JA: Yeah, I love that. So we're kind of talking about it. It's a perfect segway, but tell me about your entrepreneurial journey. How did you become Joe, the SEO guy? How did you get here?

JW: A lot of people do call me Joe the SEO. How did it start? Well, when I finished university, which was probably 16 17 years ago, I decided that I was going to build a website, see how it did on Google, and just kind of [inaudible] work out how this online marketing thing really pieced together. So I built a website called opening, which I've since sold, but in doing so I just discovered; actually it wasn't built in a website that I really enjoyed. It was SEO and being from Wales, which is kind of like small little brother compared to say England, it's quite a small country. I decided to move to London to really learn SEO as best I could, and I worked in an agency or a couple of different agencies for around five years. And although it was great because I learned a lot in that environment because you're working with lots of different clients and I really enjoyed it after a while I kind of got a little disillusioned by how agencies often treated their clients and the service that they offered.

I kind of feel it's actually quite hard from the agency to do a really good job because there are a lot of moving parts, you know, the agency wants to be profitable, the clients obviously want to have good results, and it takes a really well organized agency to be able to deliver those two things well. Um, and so that everyone wins and the agencies that I worked for, that wasn't so much the case. That kind of got me thinking, well I really enjoy SEO, not so keen in working for an agency. So what I decided to do was actually teach SEO. So around 10 years ago, I set up my own in-person SEO training course. And for probably the seven or eight years on that was kind of my main income was teaching people face to face in SEO.

JA: Yeah. So you just advertise in-person SEO classes in your community and taught those, or were you selling directly to corporations? Who are you selling to?

JW: It was surprisingly easy at the time, like I sort of stumbled across that and I think within free months, you know, I had flown over to Turkey and taught Sony SEO and this was all from them finding me typing in SEO training into Google. My website appeared so it would be large corporations. Predominantly it was more small businesses that I taught, but it was quite varied group of people.

JA: I see. And you used SEO to launch your in-person SEO training business. Okay, so you did that, and you said for about seven years, and then you made the transition to having an online course. And I want to talk about that, but before we do, let's define SEO for anyone who is listening and may be vague, we all vaguely know what it is, but what is SEO and why is it important for business owners?

JW: Okay. Yeah, so SEO is search engine optimization, so it's the process of ranking your website highly on Google. It's the free results, so it's not advertising. It's where you know you get traffic from Google without paying them, and the reason that it's important, I guess, and the reason that it matters is that people are specifically looking for something. You know, if you are a plumber in New York and your website ranks highly for plumbers in New York, then there's a high chance that that person is ready to buy and it's ready to get the services that you offer. Nope. There's a lot of different online marketing channels that you know that you can do. Facebook advertising is very popular as much as SEO isn't so much of a buzz term these days. I kind of feel like it's a bit of a, you know, it's the keeper so to speak. As long as we're using the internet, we will be searching for things that we want to find more information on, and we'll be searching for products that we want to buy.

JA: Yeah. In the bonus segment I really want to get into, because SEO just feels like it's this thing that we can never master, at least for me, it just seems like it's ever-changing. There's so much that I don't know. So I want to talk about that in the bonus segment. So we'll just table that, stick a pin in that for now.

JW: Just to kind of add to that, I would say most people that I speak to about SEO, they either feel lost with SEO, or they feel like their website is lost on search engines and they kind of feel like Google's always updating its algorithm and they just don't know where to start. So yeah, in that bonus section, I'm very happy to share some tips and tricks that will, um, help progress your SEO.

JA: Fantastic. Okay, so now let's get back to your business. So you said seven years of in-person teaching, and then you started thinking about putting an online course together. Tell me about that. What was the impetus for doing that?

JW: I think in the back of my mind, I'd wanted to do an online course for awhile. It was kind of working in person, so I just carried on focusing with that. But I think really the main kind of push to go more online was I moved from London back to Wales bought a house, got married, had a child. So it was that kind of settling down. That transition point in my life and I was like, you know what, I've always wanted to do an online course. There aren't as many people to teach in Wales face to face. So let’s give this online course ago.

JA: I was going to ask about that. I imagine there was a lot of travel and everything, so you get to a point in your life where you're settling down, and I'm assuming you don't want to be doing all of that travel and trying to figure out how you can scale this thing.

JW: That's true. And that's quite important word, that scaling aspect because they were long periods during those seven years that my website ranked number one on Google for SEO training in the UK and I was kind of like at my maximum that I could really give to the training. But it didn't want to have staff really. I didn't really want to commit to office spaces. I like the flexible approach that it has, but at the same time I couldn't see what was next. I couldn't see how I could grow the company in a way that felt right to me and that I was kind of happy with. So even though it was doing well, I felt like it was quite static. I didn't know what the next challenge was. Whereas now it's kind of interesting because whereas setting up the in-person as you're trading, I think I got a little bit lucky with the timing [inaudible] you know, within a weekend I'd written the course, and I was teaching someone the next week and because it was face to face, you can kind of get a feel for what they need and even if your materials aren't perfect, you can make up for it with, you know, just having a kind of coaching environment.

Whereas online it has taken me a lot longer to get to the stage that I'm on at now and I would have predicted.

JA: Yeah. You said really important about just not knowing what was next. Let's talk about that because I think that's common for a lot of solo business owners is particularly service-based solo business owners because there is that period. I think now we're in an interesting place where a lot of people are saying exactly what you did. I don't want to staff necessarily, I want to grow, but how do I grow if it's just me and I'm at my max capacity. So it is hard to see what that looks like. And now there's more models. But you know, maybe five, six, seven years ago it wasn't that case. So how did you break through? If you felt blind to what was going to come next, how did you break through?

JW: You know what, it took a long time. If I'm being honest, there was a point where I felt burnt out, and it wasn't just by the sheer work that I was doing, I think it was because I just, I didn't know what was next and it kind of felt like there was less purpose and drive as to what I was doing. And, well, you mentioned the models, the models that I had at the time were SEO and referrals. They were my main two models for the sources of income. Whereas, you know, I'm at a stage now, and I use a productivity tool call Notion, which is a little bit like Evernote --

JA: -- but better --

JW: -- more flexible and I love Evernote and literally almost every day I've got a note in there or a table, it's called income ideas, and I'll write in a new income idea. And you know, I think the list is over like a hundred different ways that I could see that my course could make money. Whereas previously, you know, like I had to, I kind of maxed them out to the point where it was just going to require more of my time. Um, so those two weren't that interesting at a certain stage where I just felt too busy.

JA: I think, you know, the big takeaway I want everyone to get out of this is it's normal to go through a burnout period, or if we're being honest periods, you're going to have spots in your business where, you know, I read an amazing article from Amy Hoy, and she says, these are inflection points where you're kind of feeling maxed out, but you know, you need to make some changes, but you also have to keep money coming in, and you're existing in this space where things are uncomfortable. You're probably burnout, you may not know there's uncertainty, but you have to keep going. That's normal for you to have those moments in your business. And it usually means that you're about to grow particularly, or that you need to grow. That's just part of it. Right? So I just wanted to point that out because so many business owners starting out think that, you know, you just create an online course and then everything is wonderful, or you start a business and everything is wonderful, and you vacation on the beach and that's not what happens at all.

JW: No, I think you're totally right. And I kind of feel like it's this long runway and it's kind of like you feel like you're lifting off, but you're at that lift off stage. But it kind of feels like it's just taking that bit longer than you would think.

JA: Yeah. As entrepreneurs I think we're a bit off to be honest because we're just going to keep going and things are, you know, difficult and challenging, and business is about solving problems. So you have to know that from the outset and know that they are always going to be a problem to solve. Okay. Let's talk about your, your course. You said something when we were preparing for the podcast, and you said, you know, teaching in person was so much easier than teaching online. Let's talk about that. How so?

JW: Okay. So when I was teaching in person, I basically knocked up some PowerPoint slides, you know, in a few days delivered the course I think because it was just to one group of people, maybe six people, I guess there was less fear that you know, the reality is if six people think it's not amazing, then it's just six people. And I think there's an aspect of when you go online, and you try and do some similar digital, you moved from say six people to you know, almost like a global audience and I think that might be one aspect. Another aspect would be I did a computing related degrees, so I'm pretty good from a technical perspective, but I think it has held me back in terms of getting my course out there. So I've decided to go down the heavily customized WordPress and learn dash roots, and I've kind of gamified it by building a kind of bespoke model myself, which is really cool and fun. But the problem is, you know, at the moment my course is in a beta stage so some people are seeing it and you know, and I'm getting some good feedback from them, but I think the reality is I should probably have gone for just a more stripped down version of the course.

JA: Yeah.

JW: And actually just get feedback on the course rather than the kind of bells and whistles so to speak.

JA: That makes a lot of sense. But you know, I think that you had an advantage because you had been teaching it in person. So I totally understand why you may have gravitated towards the bells and whistles approach.

JW: Yeah.

JA: When you're just starting out, and maybe you haven't taught something before. Absolutely. I'm a huge advocate of just starting with something imperfect, you know, just keep it as minimal as possible and get that feedback on the content before you add the bells and whistles.

JW: Yeah, and one thing I would add is for people who are listening to this now, if you have an online course, or you're creating an online course but you haven't taught it in person, you know, I would sort of maybe challenge you to teache it in-person even if it's just one or two times or even, you know, frequently or infrequently because there's one thing, seeing someone in front of you, learning what you're teaching, you can see what bits they enjoy, what bits they don't enjoy, what bits they're struggling with. And from a just observing people. Like I think the one thing I learned very early on face to face is people like interaction. So you know if you talk for an hour and this little interaction that that's not good. So you want to ask them questions, but you also want to set them activities and whilst you might not be able to ask questions in a traditional online course, of course you can in other ways you can set activities. I think that's quite key. People like to feel like they're progressing; they like to feel like they're doing things.

JA: Yeah, I mean that's a great point and it's something that I've written about where you know there was a period when online courses first started popping up gosh, I think maybe 2011 2010 if we're being really early, but 2011 2012 I think that's when we started seeing them online and there were a lot of people who are simply thinking an online course is just another format for sharing information that I've already created.

So we would see people taking eBooks. It you remember when everybody was doing eBooks? They would take their eBooks and literally put them in course platform LearnDash or thank you fake or something like that. And ta-da, I have a course and charge more money. And what you just said is so important because that's not how it works. An online course is about doing, it's definitely information, but more importantly it is what activities, how are you going to help me apply this information? How are you going to structure your course so that I, I have learned and that's the big question I think a lot of course creators and consumers are asking now they understand that reading walls of texts and then calling it a course is not working. What can I do? So I love that you said that because it is the thing that differentiates your chores from an ebook or just a book period.

JW: Sure. No, I totally agree. You know, it's about making it actionable, and also I think that they should feel like rather than just reading an outline, the way that I've done my course is there's like a journey map. After each lesson in each module, they can see where they are in the course. I've got a success path checklist where they can just cross off the key activities that they've done, and it feels like not only they progressing through the course on a modular basis, but that progressing through it in terms of actually getting stuff done and feedback so far has been pretty good with that.

JA: I love that you said journey map. I use that same phrase, so I love that, and we're in sync.

JW: Cool.

JA: All right, so let's more about your course. It's called Learn SEO Fast. Who is this course for?

JW: Yeah, so Learn SEO Fast. It's really for small businesses who want to get more free traffic from Google. And the reason that I created it is that I kind of believe, and I've got a lot of friends who still work in SEO agencies, but I believe maybe 80 to 90% of SEO agencies are a rip off. I think they're a bad fit for the clients that they take on. So really it's for anyone who wants to get more traffic from Google and other search engines to their website.

JA: Okay, got it. And what are the learning outcomes? What should I be able to accomplish after upon completing your course?

JW: Okay. Yeah, so I kind of more basic level. What you should be able to do is to do keyword research. So understand who your target audience is, what keywords they'd be typing into Google.

And we'd run through some tools that you could use to see what the search volumes are for keywords. You would know which keywords would be the best ones to pick, and how you would work those keywords into your web pages or into content. And then the next level on top would be starting to think more about your user experience and the user satisfaction. So how can you kind of provide the answers that searches are actually looking for? That's becoming more important because you know, Google's now using artificial intelligence, so as much as the keywords and keyword placement are still important, [inaudible] kind of a little bit more sophisticated in terms of how it works. So yeah, those are some of the sort of key outcomes that you'd be looking at.

JA: Okay. Is the course itself study? Correct. Is that how it's structured?

JW: It is. I'm still sort of toying around with exactly how it will finish, but at the moment it is. It's self study, so it's nine modules at the moment in the Beta it's half created, and it's looking like it will probably end up being around seven or eight hours.

JA: Okay, got it. So being a self study program, where do you find that students get stuck in that journey?

JW: The bit that I sort of mentioned to you, bye. Some of the course deliverables, those are kind of in the first half of my course. So do you know why it's still at quite an early stage with the beta course that it's not obvious to me? What do you mean? From an SEO perspective or from an online course perspective?

JA: That's a great question. So for your course, what I mean is where are the spots where some people call them rough spots or stuck zones where people just are struggling with the material. So a particular topic that you know is challenging for a lot of learners.

JW: Okay. I would say for people who are totally new to SEO, an area where people often get stuck is keyword research and sometimes they don't realize they're stuck and that's when they tend to pick keywords which are too broad. They tend to have good search volume. It's like keyword that everyone wants to rank for in your industry. Well if you sold ski vocations, we call them ski holidays. Over here you'd want to rank for ski vacations or ski holidays, but the reality is that's the most competitive keyword. It's very generic, so it's going to be harder to convert unless you've got a really good product range. From a topical perspective, that's probably the area where I see people go wrong the most.

JA: Yeah. One of my favorite books is Badass by Kathy Sierra, and you know she talks about this idea of she's speaking from user experience, but it is also learning design of just when you look at a journey, particularly a learner journey, part of that journey is where people are going to encounter material that is going to be challenging and possibly make them want to give up. So knowing those spots within, you know, for example, for my group program, one of the first spots we hit head on in the first couple of modules, which is doing some preliminary audience research and it's a sticky zone because people just simply don't always want to talk to people. They don't want to, you know, people hear the word research, and it's like, Oh, you know, they're not excited about it at all. So that's definitely a stuck zone for people.

JW: Now that you mentioned that, I can actually relate to that completely. And when I was teaching SEO in person, I had an introductory course, which was a day long and an intermediate course. And the intermediate course was divided into technical content and links for SEO. And I started with the technical part because in my mind it was more logical that by getting your technical right, you can move on to your content because you don't really have to look at that again once it's okay. I mean you probably will want to come back to it now and again. And then when you have your content right, you then want to build your link. So it made sense from that perspective. But from a learner perspective it was too dry, particularly if you're not retaining nickel. It was like, Whoa, have I signed up for the right course? So what I've done with my current course is rather than stick the technical bet at the beginning out of my nine modules, technical bet, it's the sec module. So there's a lot of practical stuff and more fun stuff that they can get right at the get go. And then as they've got momentum it then starts to get a little bit more technical, although you know, still not too technical.

JA: Okay. So before we get to the final three questions, you mentioned that you're in beta right now. How did you launch your beta? Did you launch it to your email list? How did you get students in there?

JW: Yeah, so I've trained around a thousand people face to face, and I have their contact details. They're on my email list, so I'm going to go through different stages of beta. So at the moment I probably only got around, no, maybe 25 or 30 people on the beta, but I haven't actually proactively gone out and found anyone. These are people that have contacted me because they know that I do SEO. I'm kind of at that stage where I'm going to start contacting people an offering. The beta I'm planning to do at three stages. So the first stage will be what I call my base stage, and that's my first three modules, and I'm planning on like a 50% discount at that level. And then the next stage would be, well I'm calling my climb stage, which is the next three modules and there'll be a slightly less discount.

And then the next stage will be the rank stage, which is the final three modules. So that's where I'll start to progressively look to get more people on the beta course. Part of that will be, I think initially because I've had that face to face contact rather than just send out know like an email newsletter. So I want to try and make it more personal. And one of the ways I plan to do that, there's a lot of people are on LinkedIn who I have trained, so I'm planning to sort of send a LinkedIn message with a personal video where I'm holding up their name and, and then the, the subject of the email or that message within LinkedIn will be something like, you know, it's been 522 days since our SEO course would you like to see a free video, which tells you what's changed and then hopefully that will start a dialog to reengage with those people.

JA: That sounds like a great plan, and I forget there's a tool that will help you create those videos. I forget the name of it.

JW: There's one called Bon Jura, which I think most people know, but I'm using one called Dub cause it was a lifetime deal on it not so long ago.

JA: Yeah, that's really cool. Well, I think that for anyone, there's a lot of people listening who do teach in person, but if you don't, one last thing I want to say before we get to the final three questions is I am constantly nailing home the idea of starting with services, and I love that you just explained that you know, you have people who reached out and know that you teach SEO and that you were able to funnel them into your beta and also reconnecting with people that you've worked with in the past. That's why it's so powerful to start with services because even if you have a small email list or let's say you don't have an email list, you still technically have a list of people that you can reach out to. So it's just super powerful for anyone starting out.

JW: Yeah, I totally agree, and you know, I think LinkedIn's a great way of staying in contact. I'm not sure if it's the same in the US but certainly in the UK people professionally do use LinkedIn, so that's pretty good.

JA: Cool. All right, we are down to the final three questions show. The first one is easy. What is next for you? Anything exciting coming up?

JW: Well, next for me is I guess finishing the course and to go through those three, the two stages of launches.What will come after that is I am planning a membership site, so this is an online course. There's a clear start, a clear finish. It's very, very structured and it's really to take people who are either at an introductory level to an intermediate level, or it might be someone who has been an intermediate level, but maybe it's a little bit rusty. So that's kind of where the course is aimed at is to take people from an introductory to an intermediate level, but the membership will go deeper. Yeah, that's kind of more, you know, lots of examples. So rather than just saying, Hey, here are five LinkedIn building techniques that you can do and show some examples in the course. It will be saying, here's five examples from this one link building technique. So it's just drilling into the subject in more detail.

JA: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay. Where can people find out more about you and your work?

JW: Yeah, so is the website on Twitter. My handle is Joe the SEO and then LinkedIn I'm quite active typing, Joe Williams, SEO, LinkedIn, and I should pop up on Google.

JA: Cool. I'll be sure to share those links in the show notes. All right, last question. Joe, what is your why? Why do you get up and do this work every day?

JW: My why really is that it frustrates me how most agencies don't look after their clients in SEO. It's an area that I find really interesting, and I'm passionate and but it's also something that it frustrates me on a, on a daily basis, particularly from training. When you train people in person, you get to learn about those companies. You get to learn what's worked for them, what hasn't worked for them, and you do see a lot of issues with paying for SEO services but not really getting much value from them. I think my why really is, you know, I think that as a small business you're very agile and there's a lot of potential out there. In the SEO world and really SEO isn't as complicated as a lot of SEO agencies want you to believe. It's actually a lot simpler and my goal at this to make it easier and fun and more profitable for small businesses with SEO.

JA: I love it, and I can't wait to talk about SEO in the bonus segment. Joe, thank you so much for being on the show.

JW: Okay. It's been great Janelle and thank you very much.

JA: Hey family. Look, I've got a couple of important links for you. First and foremost, if you enjoyed that interview and you want to find out more about Joe, I hope you did. I hope you love the; I had a great time talking with Joe. Then here's what you need to do to check out the show notes and find out more about where to find Joe and some of the links that we mentioned in the interview. Head over to Zen Once again that’s Zen for episode 107 all right. That's not it. One more important link for you. If you are a longtime listener of the show, you know that we have bonus segments where the guests and I get a chance to dig deep into their area of expertise and with Joe, I have to tell you, I quizzed him on some SEO stuff, and he showed up. He taught me some things and made me think about SEO in a way that I had never thought about it before. So definitely, definitely check out the bonus segment so you can hear that conversation that we had, especially if SEO is something that you're interested in.

Head over to if you're in front of a computer. Once again, or you can simply text the word extra, extra all one word, E, X, T, R A, E,X,T, R,A to the number 442 22. Again, if you're on your phone, just text extra extra to the number 442 22. You'll get a link to the bonus segment, and you'll also get access to all of the previous bonus segments and be added to my list for news and updates from me. All right, my friend, that is my time.

I will see you next time. All right, my friends, that is my time. Remember, before you can level up your course, you must first level up your mind. As always, thank you for hanging out with me for another great episode. I do not take it for granted. I am Janelle Allen, and this has been Level Up Your Course. Peace

Episode Highlights

00:57 Getting to know Joe Williams, Rapid 5 Questions 

07:34 Joe's entrepreneurial journey - "Joe the SEO"

10:36 What is SEO? Why it is important for business owners?

12:32 The impetus of creating Learn SEO Fast

15:33 From burnout to breakthrough 

18:25 Teaching in person vs. teaching online

23:44 Learn SEO Fast - Who is it for?

24:24 Learn SEO Fast - Learning outcomes and stuck zone

29:31 Launching the beta course

32:41 Awesome things coming up from Joe, social media links

Connect with Joe

Enjoy this episode?

Join us in the bonus segment! It’s a great conversation about ranking websites and some tips from Joe to progress your SEO strategy.

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